4.7 Championing 3 - Complexities

The advocacy approach can work beautifully in the simplest situations and in the most incredibly complex situations.

In this final scenario, we’re going to look at a situation that’s got a medium level of complexity. Mark, the new ED, has got a mess on his hands, but a mess with possibilities. This story runs a little longer than usual because there are more people involved.

Mark:  I called you because I’ve got a mess on my hands and I’m out of patience. I don’t know what to do, but whatever I’m going to do I’m going to do now.

Rich:  Okay, give me some quick background and let’s dig in.

Mark:  I’m a first-time ED. I’ve been here a month. During the hiring process, the Board told me I’d have to clean up some staff issues. They told me there was a problem, but they didn’t quite tell me how bad the problem was.

Rich:  Given what you’ve uncovered, what’s it like to be the leader of this nonprofit?

Mark:  It’s embarrassing.

I don’t know why I just said that. I haven’t used that word before. But it’s exactly right. I wouldn’t want any of my friends to drop by the office. It wouldn’t take them more than a few minutes to see what a swamp this place is.

Maybe the most telling thing is when I get home at night and Marnie, my partner, asks me about my day, it’s hard to meet her gaze. I adore this woman, and damn, I’m embarrassed in front of her. That’s really not okay.

I used to be proud of how I spend my days. I want Marnie to be proud.

Rich:  Sounds like relationships are important to you.

Mark:  My friends brag about me, how impeccable I am at personal relationships. It wasn’t always this way, but when I met Marnie, I was so crazy about her that I decided I’d do whatever it took to give her a relationship that was more than she ever imagined she could have.

I realized early on that I’d lose her if I didn’t fix the fix-it thing I did with people. She didn’t need any fixing. Wouldn’t have stood for it.

I worked for a full year with a counselor, a practical gal with just the right touch of pushy to get me into my feelings and then into the stuff behind them. Marnie tells me all the time now how much she loves living with me.

Rich: What changes for you when you walk through the door of this nonprofit?

Mark:  In here it’s like I come under a spell. I think I’m saying to myself that this is a nonprofit so I have to put up with goofy stuff. Like we’re not paying the staff enough for professional behavior so we have to put up with acting out. Except what’s going here on is not goofy, it’s mean.

Rich:  How is that for you?

Mark:  It turns my stomach.

Rich:  How much do you care about this place and this work?

Mark:  I love the mission. I love the design of the program. And I can see a dozen different ways I can make it better, take it further, blossom new things out of the old. And I want to do that. I think I have it in me to become a great ED. But I can’t go for great in a culture that’s crap.

Rich:  Will you let the crap drive you out?

Mark:  No way!!

Rich:  Wow, you put a lot of energy behind those two words.

Mark:  I guess I did. And I really mean it. You know, the Board told me I had a free hand with the staff, that I could fire people if I needed to in order to get this place working right. I’ve never done a firing and I don’t like the idea of it. But in this moment, I’m ready to do whatever it takes.

Rich:  So I hear you taking a stand. Putting a stake in the ground.

Mark:  Yes, I hear that, too. It gives me a shiver. It feels good. It makes me feel like me again.

Rich:  And about that spell…

Mark:  I’m going to break it. That’s a promise.

Rich:  Here are two hopeful signs I’m seeing: First, you’re really passionate about turning this place around.

Mark:  That’s true.

Rich:  And second, you know what great relationships are like and you’re committed to them. Some nonprofit leaders—I used to be one myself—do fix-it and rescuing and co-dependency stuff in their personal relationships as well as with their staff at work. So they’ve got double trouble. They’ve got more to work through.

But you…

Mark:  I know what I’m going for and I’m ready, willing, and able to go there. I just need to get this whatever it is that’s in my way cleared out. How could I have lost touch with myself like this?

Rich:  Something about this job made you forget who you are for a bit.

Mark:  But now I’m remembering.

Rich:  And…

Mark:  I’m starting to believe you about hope.

Rich:  And what does that make possible for you?

Mark:  It charges me up. Let’s take on the specifics.

Rich:  Okay.

Mark:  It kills me that I can’t keep my staff safe.

Rich:  What do you mean?

Mark:  I’ve been here long enough now that I’ve been able to diagnose the problem. Two of the staff are doing bullying and intimidating. Kirk’s the ring leader and Troy is his sidekick. He backs up whatever Kirk initiates.

The other five don’t know how to handle the bullying so sometimes they yell and sometimes they suffer through it, but from what I’ve seen they keep getting their feelings hurt.

Rich:  And…

Mark:  I hate it. Here were are supposedly a social-change organization going out every day to make the world a better place, but in the office things are bad. That’s wrong. People getting hurt while they’re trying to do good work, that’s just wrong.

Rich:  What have you tried so far?

Mark:  I’ve had individual lunches with each of the staff. Three people dropped hints about how upset they are. But they’re still checking me out so I know I’m not hearing the whole story yet. When I came in here, I figured I wouldn’t shake things up right off. I wanted to treat their staff culture with respect. But I haven’t found anything about it to respect.

Rich:  How do you know the staff are hurting?

Mark:  I’ve seen some of the women in tears. Sometimes I stand in the hall and eavesdrop on what happens in the lunchroom and I’ve heard hurtful stuff go down.

Samira had her head down on her desk yesterday when I went into her office. I noticed the paperwork was wet and the ink was blotched. Jackie gets in yelling fights with Kirk, but she always loses. Kirk outflanks her.

Rana was talkative about her work when I took her to lunch, in fact she was glowing. But in the office, she’s quiet as a mouse. She stays in the shadows out of everybody’s way.

Man, I hate this. What can I do? You know, I understand that it takes some time to get the gag on an organization, but I’ve got it. So now what’s happening here is my responsibility. I can give myself a pass for the first month, but no more. Now this mess belongs to me.

Rich:  Do you notice yourself taking a stand again?

Mark:  Yeh, it keeps getting bigger.

Rich:  Tell me about Kirk and Troy.

Mark:  Troy is a non-entity. I know that’s not a nice thing to say, to dismiss him like that, but it’s like he has no backbone. He seems to be here just to go on Kirk’s ride. Kirk attacks someone and then Troy runs in and pokes them with a twig like seconding a motion.

I guess I’m not really worried about dealing with him. By himself he’s no threat. That’s a good thing for me to realize.

Rich:  And Kirk?

Mark:  He can be very entertaining and persuasive. He’s got a whole lot of personality. But with a cutting edge. I always make sure I have my guard up around him.

Rich:  What about when you took him to lunch?

Mark:  He could hardly look me in the eye. He kept taking the conversation off on tangents, away from anything important. He only ordered an appetizer and a cup of soup and when he was done he made an excuse about running an errand and left.

Rich:  Does he ever challenge you directly?

Mark:  No. That’s interesting, never.

Rich:  What would you guess his goal is? For example, do you think he might be interested in pushing you out and taking the ED job for himself?

Mark:  God, no. First he couldn’t handle it. He’s too disorganized. He’s useless at administration and details. Second, I think he must know the Board would never hire him. Third, I think he gets his kicks out of being the Cock of the Rock without any responsibility.

Rich:  The reason I’m asking these questions is to try to determine whether Kirk’s an amateur bully or a professional bully.

Mark:  I’d say definitely an amateur. But what’s the difference?

Rich:  A professional bully wouldn’t hesitate to oppose you directly. Would look you in the eye to intimidate you. Would order a whole chicken dinner for lunch and wouldn’t let you rattle him. Wouldn’t just oppose you but would try to take you all the way down.

An amateur bully just wants to keep on running his game. He gets away with his bullying only if people give up their power. There’s a lot of bluff to an amateur bully. Determined resistance and limit setting will stop him. His bullying is more on the surface than at his core.

Mark:  Then Kirk’s definitely an amateur. And Troy’s not even that. He’s more like a bully accessory.

So this gives me more hope.

Rich:  My prediction is that you’re going to be able to put a stop to the trouble in your nonprofit quickly.

Mark:  I’m really, really glad to hear that.

Rich:  Ready to start designing a plan?

Mark:  Yes. I notice that we did a lot of prep before getting to this point.

Rich:  On purpose. Here’s the way I look at it: First you take your stand, then you take your steps. The stand you take determines the steps you’ll take. And some of those steps might surprise you.

Mark:  I’m ready for anything. But I sure wish I had taken action sooner.

Rich:  I wonder if maybe your intuition was warning you, telling you there’s potential here for a blow up. Maybe it was telling you to hold on until you could put together a plan to match the seriousness of the problem. Which you’re now doing. Making sure that when you make your move you’re going to win.

Mark:  I think that might actually be true.

Rich:  And what matters most?

Mark:  That my assessment time hasn’t lasted more than a month. And that now I am taking action.

Oh, and here’s one more piece of information. I’ve tried reasoning with Kirk twice, two long sessions, to see if I could win him over to better behavior. Persuade him. But it went nowhere, so I’m thinking I won’t do that again. And I’m thinking this is going to take more than talking, isn’t it?

Rich:  Yes. There will be talking but it will have power this time because it will be in the context of…

Mark:  The stand I’m taking.

Rich:  Yes!

Mark:  Kirk is a fast talker. If you try to back him into a corner he slips out easily.

Rich:  What does that slipperiness give him?

Mark:  He never gets pinned down so you can’t hold him accountable. He keeps his game going and tap dances his way out of any real conversation.

Rich:  And your reaction?

Mark:  With both conversations I had with Kirk, he was happier at the end than he was at the beginning. And I was more bummed. It’s not supposed to work like that, is it?

Rich:  No, but hooray for noticing that. It’s a telltale sign. When someone is acting out, one key move you can make is to put the pressure back on him.

Mark:  What pressure?

Rich:  The pressure to take responsibility for his behavior. If you’re taking responsibility for him, then he’s free to be irresponsible.

Mark:  How so?

Rich:  When you were reasoning with Kirk, did you put any pressure on yourself to get him to agree with you and change, did you feel it was up to you to make the difference, and if only you could come up with good enough reasons, then he would be convinced and come around?

Mark:  That’s exactly how I felt. So I bailed him out?

Rich:  That’s a good way to put it.

Mark:  I don’t like that.

Rich:  Which is something else you’ve got going for you.

Given how Kirk is behaving, the goal is to put the burden of responsibility back on him. You want him to feel it. A nice guy carries responsibility for others. When you take your stand, you give the full weight of responsibility back to the person who should be carrying it.

Reasoning with a bully just encourages him and keeps him in business. Taking a stand is what shifts the power relationship.

Mark:  Got it. No more reasoning.

Rich:  Cool. Now here’s a question: Do you want to just fire Kirk and Troy and be done with them?

Mark:  I’d like to say yes, but the answer is no. Isn’t that interesting? No, I want to give each of them a chance to change. That’s the kind of leader I want to be.

Rich:  You’d be totally justified in firing them right now.

Mark:  Yes, they really are a destructive presence. But that’s not how I want to handle it.

Rich:  Right now I’m hearing you add a strong dose of advocacy into your stand. Which is why I call what we’re doing the advocacy approach or the advocacy-stand.

You’re actually advocating for the troublemakers. Not for them to make trouble, but for giving them a chance to clean up their act and get on the team.

Mark:  I don’t believe for a minute they’re going to have a change of heart. But I want to hold that possibility.

Rich:  There again, you’re advocating for the best in them in. You’re taking a stand for possibility while taking a stand against crap.

Mark:  I get that. That’s part of breaking the spell, then?

Rich:  Yes. Instead of passively resigning yourself to the worst, you’re actively advocating for the best.

Mark:  So if I can’t reason with them, does that mean I have to fight with them?

Rich:  Do you want a fight?

Mark:  I sure don’t.

Rich:  What if you were to decide: No fights. No battles. Not ever. Not on your watch.

Mark:  That’s really possible?

Rich:  Yes. And you’ll get to watch yourself make it come true.

Mark:  Neat.

Rich:  So if you don’t reason or fight, what’s open to you?

Mark:  That’s a stumper.

Rich:  What do you know about organizing?

Mark:  Lots. In my first job I was a community organizer.

Rich:  How’d you like it?

Mark:  I loved it. And I was really good at it. I’m not bragging. My ED told me that all the time.

Rich:  What if you look at this situation from an organizing perspective? This is not just a simple personnel issue. There are power issues in play. So that makes it political.

Let’s say you had a bookkeeper in the back office who was not competent with the accounting, but was not causing any other kind of trouble in the organization, that would be a simple personnel problem, and if you decided to fire him, that would be a simple firing.

But Kirk is hurting people. He’s controlling the culture of the office. So this is what I call a political problem, meaning a number of people are involved and power plays are involved.

Mark:  Yes, this staff culture is definitely a coherent system. Coherently dysfunctional, but it’s a system. The whole organization has been enabling Kirk and Troy by refusing to take a stand against them. I understand people being scared of them, but together we easily have the power to stop their abuse.

Rich:  Did you notice what you just said?

Mark:  I did.

Rich:  As an organizer, then, what do you do first?

Mark:  I assess the system and pick strategies that address the whole system. That’s the powerful way to do this. Okay, this is going to be fun!

Rich:  Fun?! Did you expect to hear yourself say that?

Mark:  Not at all, but I’m there now.

Rich:  One of the things I like about the advocacy-stand is that it gives you all kinds of positive energy to work with even in a negative situation.

So let me recommend that we start with a Board check. How sure are you that they meant it when they said you could fire people if you needed to?

Mark:  Sort of sure, but not sure enough.

Rich:  When’s your next Board meeting?

Mark:  A month from this week.

Rich:  What do you want to ask of your Board so you’re sure they’re standing behind you when you make your move?

Mark:  I’d like to tell them: You’ve given me a mandate to fix the staff problems. I’ve been here a month and I’ve made a thorough assessment and put together a game plan and I’m ready to go. I can handle this situation myself, but there’s one thing I need from you to make the plan work.

That’s all, just one thing.

I’m about to put some serious pressure on Kirk and Troy to clean up their behavior. I’m not going to let them hurt people or this nonprofit anymore. They might have a big reaction. They might call some of you at home to start an uproar and to try to get you to back me off.

If they do call, I’d like to ask that you not engage. You don’t have to do any back and forth with them. Just tell them…

“I’m not going to talk with you about this. You have to go back to Mark. The Board is 100% behind him and any decision he makes. And now this conversation is over and I’m hanging up.”

And then I’d ask the Board…

“Would you be willing to do that? Just say no?”

Rich: Anything more you want from them? Do you want them to take a vote and make that an official Board policy?

Mark: I’ll read their reactions. If they’re the least bit iffy then I just might ask them to make it a policy. That would be a good way to show them how serious I am about my request.

Rich:  Sometimes in the safety of a meeting Board members agree to stand strong, but then crunch time comes and it turns out to be harder than they thought it would be.

Mark:  Exactly. Kirk’s a good talker, he’s got a lot of practice at intimidating people. He could try that with the Board members.

Oh, I see what I need. I need to know that my Board is taking this stand with me. Not just watching all this go down. I need very little from them. But I do need to see them own this stand.

Rich:  Why?

Mark:  Because if they don’t back me up, Kirk will figure he has a free hand, and then we’re into a protracted battle and this situation could take a very long time to resolve. And you know what? I’m not going to stick around for a battle.

Rich:  So you need to tell the Board…

Mark:  What’s at stake here. I like this Board, I think they’ll be with me, but I need that commitment.

Rich:  You need that.

Mark:  Yes, I do need that. And I want them to know how big a difference they’ll make if they just refuse to engage in any phone calls.

But damn, a month till the next meeting.

Rich:  How critical is this situation?

Mark:  Aha. I’m deciding right now that it’s critical enough for an emergency meeting. I’m going to ask for that asap.

Rich:  And what will that communicate to the Board?

Mark:  Again, just how serious this is. And that the whole organization has to be involved.

Rich:  Which brings us back to the five women on staff.

Mark:  Yes. What can I do with them? Let me see. What do I know? I know that all of them are unhappy and hurting to some degree.

Rich:  So an organizer would…

Mark:  Meet with each of them off site and find out where they stand. There’s that word again.

Rich:  Okay, and why would they open up to you? What do they need?

Mark:  They need to know that I’m in motion, that my plan is starting. But how much should I tell them?

Rich:  How big is it what you’re doing?

Mark:  I’m fixing this problem, but I’m also changing the staff culture of this organization and changing it forever, well, at least for as long as I’m here. So it’s big.

Rich:  Is there any reason to hold anything back from these five?

Mark:  I can’t think of any.

Rich:  So then you can do what I call “preaching your gospel.” Give them the big picture. And do it with your full passion, because this is a stand you’re taking with every bit of yourself and you’re inviting them to take it with you in the same way.

We’re guessing that they’re scared, and if that’s true, they’ll need to see that you really mean it about making changes.

Mark:  I like that approach. I do want to tell them the whole thing. I’m ready. Here’s how I’m going say it…

I’m meeting with you to bring you up to date and give you an invitation.

I’ve been here a month now. It’s taken me that amount of time to diagnose what’s going wrong in this organization. And what I’m seeing is bullying and intimidation, and lots and lots of hurt feelings. And I want you to know that I’m done with my diagnosis, I’ve made my plan, the Board is standing 100% behind me, and it’s time to execute.

From now on there’s going to be no more relational aggression in this organization. None. I hate that stuff and it’s so wrong to have it happening in a nonprofit and I’m putting a stop to it. I’m going to make this a safe place for staff to work.

And I’d like to invite you to join me in making this change. What do you think?

And then I’ll hear them out.

Rich:  What do you expect you’ll hear?

Mark:  I’m 99% sure they’re going to be incredibly relieved to see me taking charge.

Rich:  And once you’ve heard from them one by one…

Mark:  I’ll get the six of us together and take whatever time we need so we can gel as a team. Agree to be each other’s allies. No one stands alone anymore. 

Rich:  And what specifically do you want to ask them to do?

Mark:  Join me in taking this stand. Join me in making a much, much better future for this nonprofit. I want to hear that commitment from them.

Rich:  And what actions can they take?

Mark:  I want to ask them to walk away from Kirk if he bullies them. I don’t want them to engage. I want them to come to me so I can confront Kirk directly myself since I’ve got the authority to discipline him. And besides it’s hard to bully somebody if they’re not there.

And something more. If they’d join up with each other that would be very powerful. If Kirk starts going after someone in the lunch room, it would be great if, with one voice, they’d all tell him to stop. Just that, stop. And then come get me.

Rich:  So another reason you need the Board to stand strong is that you’re going to be making a big promise to the five women that you’ll protect them.

Mark:  Yes, I need to walk the Board through my whole plan so they’ll see how much it matters that they do their part.

All right, I’m doing a bang up job of organizing here. Time to focus in on the lead characters.

Rich:  Lead characters?

Mark:  Right, me and my five allies and my Board are the lead characters. We’re the ones doing the leading from now on.

Rich:  Let’s take one more moment with the five women. When have you seen them at their best?

Mark:  That’s easy. I went out and observed each of them leading workshops with the teens and they were dynamite. Every one of them. These are strong, bright women.

Yet back here at the office they give up their power…just like I’ve been doing.

Rich:  What do you know about the past ED?

Mark:  The Board let him go, and this is a together Board, so I’d guess he was failing in some way. Oh, but you know what? The Chair told me the past ED was best buddies with Kirk.

Rich:  So then what’s your guess?

Mark:  I’d guess that the three guys ran the culture. And I’d guess that the five women love the work so much that they suffered through their time in the office in order to be able to lead their workshops in the schools where they get to shine.

Rich:  And if you’re right…

Mark:  Which I’ll bet I am, then that means that their moxie is in hiding. They don’t know yet which way the cat is going to jump. They haven’t seen me set a new direction with a strong hand. They don’t know if I’m going to be like the last ED and side with Kirk and Troy and keep the old culture going.

Rich:  So if these guesses are right, there could be a simple explanation for the split in their behavior. A dysfunctional culture can disempower even great people. As I said, it can make you forget who you are. Culture can be such a force for good but also for ill.

Mark:  So if I show them that I’m making a radical, immediate, unmistakable change in the culture, I might see them become powerful back in the office?

Rich:  How would that be for you?

Mark:  I’d love it. I’d feel like I actually had a team. And if the six of us stand together, we’ll be unstoppable.

Rich:  So…

Mark:  That’s the picture I want to paint for them.

Rich:  And how are you being their advocate?

Mark:  Two ways. I’m making sure I’m giving them protection. But then I’m calling on them to claim their power and giving them a place where they can do that.

Rich:  Which means that the same advocacy-stand that you’re using to resolve the trouble is the stand you’re using to create the future you want.

Mark:  Two for the price of one. My kind of deal.

Rich:  It’s like you and your team of five are already starting your new story before getting the old one wrapped up.

Mark:  Yes! And I see why that’s a good thing. Instead of struggling with the old story, instead of doing battle, our new story will simply and deftly and gracefully eclipse the old story. A judo move. Playing offense as a way of playing defense.

Rich:  And how will that be for you?

Mark:  Better for me, and better for everyone, including the two guys.

Rich:  Okay, now let’s get to them.

Mark:  It feels good to get to them last. To not let them be the context, but to place them in a context. One that I’ve designed.

Rich:  Yes, you are much more powerful than they are—once you’ve claimed your power. So do you want to deal with Troy first or Kirk or both at once?

Mark:  I don’t know. Lots of ways to go with this. Here’s what I think. Troy is such a nobody, I think I don’t need to put a big focus on him. I have to say, though, it worries me, given his behavior around the office, that he’s leading programs for our teens.

Okay, here’s a new piece to the puzzle. As I said, I’ve seen the woman in action, but the guys keep coming up with excuses to put me off. And it’s worked.

So tomorrow afternoon, I’m going to show up at their programs unannounced, because if their work is as bad as their behavior around the office, if they’re condescending toward the kids, or doing put downs, or if things are out of control in any way, that’s a reason to let me go immediately, no muss, no fuss.

I can imagine Kirk entertaining the hell out of the teens, but I can’t imagine what Troy is doing.

Once I’ve seen Troy in action, then I’ll confront him about his behavior and lay down the law. I’m very ready to do that.

Rich:  Which leaves you with Kirk.

Mark:  I’ll have my big meeting with him as soon as I know I have all my ducks in a row. I just want to deliver my message to him. I’m not seeking a conversation. I don’t want to sit there and listen to him try to fast talk his way out of my limit setting.

Rich:  If he does start his fast talking?

Mark:  I’ll tell him to stop. I’ll put an end to the meeting. Whatever. I don’t need one more syllable of crap from him. I mean if I’m going to set limits, I need to start right there in the meeting. I want to show him how serious this is for me. And for him, too.

Rich:  What about him?

Mark:  You know, all of a sudden, I’m not worried anymore. I know I can handle this situation and handle it well. I know this nonprofit is going to have a great future. I know I can lead us there.

Rich:  So you’ve already won.

Mark:  What do you mean?

Rich:  Right now, in this moment, the struggle is over. You’ve won. This nonprofit is now yours instead of Kirk’s. You’re going to create a future that will make the Board happy and the five women happy and the mission happy.

Mark:  Say more about winning.

Rich:  What options does Kirk have at this point?

Mark:  Two. He can pull up his socks and get on the team, and I mean really, really get on the team. Which is hard to imagine. Or he can get out.

Rich:  Nothing else?

Mark:  No.

Rich:  No middle ground?

Mark:  None.

Rich:  And either way, stay or go…

Mark:  Oh, I see. Either way this organization is moving forward to better days. Either way, we’re done with bad behavior. Either way Kirk is no longer in control of this organization. It’s already decided. Just in taking my stand I’ve put an end to the struggle.

Very cool.

Rich:  You know about matter and anti-matter? Well, Kirk has been like the anti-leader of this organization. He’s been the tail wagging the dog. He’s been controlling the place, but now…

Mark:  I’m really taking over as leader. A month ago I became leader in name, and as of right now, I’m the leader in fact.

Rich:  And that means…

Mark:  Kirk can’t be the anti-leader anymore because I’m not the kind of leader who tolerates that. That position is now closed.

Rich:  So the problem is no longer a problem.

Mark:  No, it’s not.

Rich:  You know that saying about dissolving problems instead of solving them?

Mark:  Yeh, and I’ve never really understood it before, but that’s what I just did, isn’t it?

Rich:  I’d say so.

Mark:  Fun.

Rich:  And now let’s take a deeper look at Kirk.

Mark:  Because?

Rich:  Because I’m guessing there’s something more in you about this. Remember you said you wanted to give Kirk a chance before firing him?

Mark:  Yes.

Rich:  Tell me more about why you’re taking that stand.

Mark:  Because I want to believe in possibility. I don’t want to be stupid about probability. I’m not going to hold my breath waiting for Kirk to change. But I do want to be the kind of person who keeps the possibility open.

I want to invite him to change, even if I have to kick his butt with the invitation. So, I guess that means, I need to add another part into my talk with him. Along with the limit setting message, I do want to have a change conversation with him. On my terms, but I want to have it.

Rich:  So, again, you’re his advocate.

Mark:  Part of me doesn’t want to say that, because I’m sick of him and mad at him. But now that I know this is all over and that I’ve won, I feel so much lighter about him.

Rich:  What’s the actual feeling?

Mark:  I feel compassion for Kirk. I mean, what kind of life is it when you go around hurting people all the time? That’s got to be lonely. He’s got to be in some kind of pain.

Rich:  Doesn’t he get his jollies this way?

Mark:  Yeh, there are lots of days when he seems to be in a great mood, while everyone else is clouded over. But at a deeper level it’s got to be awful living like that. I mean Troy does his bidding, but what kind of company can Troy be? He’s another sad one.

Rich:  So, compassion…

Mark:  Yeh, that struck me, too.

Rich:  How does it feel to use that word with these guys?

Mark:  Good. Really good.

Rich:  I’m noticing how you’ve made a kind of declaration of independence.

Mark:  That’s right. I’m not at the effect of these two guys any more. No matter what they do, I stick with my plan. No matter what they do, I’m ready for them. I don’t have to stress over this.

So, if I’m independent of them now, was I dependent on them before? What does that even mean?

But there’s a way that was true. I was trying to figure how to change them. To the extent I felt like I had to fix them, I was stuck in the mess with them.

Rich:  And now you’re claiming your power…

Mark:  And the power of compassion.

Rich:  And you’re doing it by calling the question, which is a key part of the advocacy-stand. You’re asking Kirk to make a decision. You’re insisting on it. This is not a request, it’s actually a demand.

Mark:  Demand as stand. When I was trying to reason with him, I was trying to get him to make the particular decision I wanted him to make.

Now I’m demanding that he make a decision, but I don’t care which way he goes with it. I really don’t. That’s such a relief. Either way I’m good. What’s not good is continuing to stay engaged in a struggle that’s entirely on his terms. What’s not good is to have my mood and my future depend in any way on him.

I feel a sense of freedom right now.

Rich:  Okay, let me toss you a curve ball. What if you go to observe Kirk tomorrow and you find out his work is excellent.

Mark:  I haven’t thought about that possibility because I don’t expect if, but if that’s true, does that mean I have to back off from him? No wait, I’ll answer that.

I don’t back off because his behavior in the office is so bad. It doesn’t matter how great he might be at his work.

Rich:  And if he were great at his work, how could you use that?

Mark:  I’d call him to greatness while calling the question.

Rich:  Which would sound like?

Mark:  Like this…

“Kirk, I just saw you do great work with those teens. You’re a major talent. Now I want to challenge you to bring your talent for making people happy back here to the office. I wasn’t sure you had it in you to clean up your act and stop hurting people, but now I’m a believer. I’ve seen a very different side of you.

“That’s the side I want to see in the office. I believe you can be a ton happier in this organization. You can have a future here. Why not? Come on, talk to me. Tell me what’s wrong with what I’m saying? Why not make amends and start a new life here?”

I feel this. I can say it and be absolutely sincere.

Rich:  And what if he says yes?

Mark:  Okay, it won’t help him at all for me to settle for an easy yes. I’d want to lock this in. So then I’d say something like…

“I’m so happy to hear that. But here’s something I want you to know. I’m really serious about this. When you say yes, that you want to be on the team with the rest of us, I’m going to need to see that yes in your behavior. Every single day I need to see that yes in action.

“So let me ask you: How serious are you about this yes? If you’re really serious, I’ll stand by you and help you.

“If you say yes, but you’re just trying to get one over on me, I want you to know that’s not going to work. Because the next time I see you harass one of the staff here, you’re gone. The very next minute, you’re gone.

“It’s your decision whether you get on the team or whether you go. It’s my decision that you have to choose one or the other. It’s my decision that you will not be allowed to hurt people anymore.

“But as you make your decision, I want to tell you I hope you’ll decide to step up and claim a new life. And that you’ll put your whole heart into it. That’s my preference.

“But if you say no, I’m fine with you leaving. I’m ready for that.

“And please bear in mind, this decision you’re making is as big as your life.”

Rich:  Wow.

Mark:  I didn’t expect to say that last line. That’s quite a stand I’m taking for him.

Rich:  What if he doesn’t get it what you’re doing? What if he just gets mad?

Mark:  Doesn’t matter.

Rich:  What could budge you from this stand?

Mark:  Not a thing. My stand is who I am. It’s so deep in me that if I budged, I wouldn’t be myself anymore. So just like I’m telling Kirk this decision is as big as his life, that’s true for me, too. My stand is as big as my life.

Rich:  You can’t make Kirk behave better. You don’t have that power. But you can call him to his best. And you can protect him from hurting people at your nonprofit.

Mark:  Protect him. That’s interesting.

Rich:  And maybe he makes a grumpy, grungy, unhappy exit. But maybe he also thinks about how respectfully you treated him. And maybe that opens up something in him later on.

Mark:  Another possibility to hold.

Rich:  Yes, and sometimes it does happen but we don’t get to see it.

Mark:  So, I’m the advocate for the bad guy. More of an advocate for him than he is for himself. Trippy.

Rich:  I think calling the question is such a kindness.

Mark:  It feels clean and crisp and right. For me to let him continue hurting people is not doing him any favors. I don’t believe it’s good for anyone to hurt other people.

Rich:  But you can make a lot of money by hurting people, can’t you? You can become powerful in this society by hurting people. And aren’t those benefits?

Mark:  Yes. But no. But why?

Rich:  Do you ever use the word “soul?”

Mark:  Yes, in my own way. I don’t think of it as something eternal and ethereal, but I use it as a metaphor, a way of talking about what matters to me most.

Rich:  So how would you use that word in this situation?

Mark:  I don’t believe it’s good for anyone’s moral soul to hurt people. Okay, that feels solid. That works for me.

Rich:  To me, calling the question and taking the advocacy-stand is soul work.

Mark:  So this is all much bigger than just a way to manage staff.

Rich:  I think it is. I think it’s about the quality of relationships. Which determines the quality of our lives. And in turn the quality of our communities.

Mark:  I see that and I’m with you. I like it being that big. And you know how I’m feeling right now?

Rich:  How?

Mark:  Proud. When I go home tonight and Marnie asks me about my day, I’ll give her a big smile and take her in my arms and tell her, “Everything’s going to be okay now. It’s all going to be okay.”

And then if she wants to hear more, which she will, we’ll have a hell of a lot to talk about.